Inside the FAI Redundancy Battle with SIPTU's Adrian Kane

In this episode of Boys We've Seen, we dive deep into the heated FAI redundancy dispute with SIPTU's Adrian Kane, exploring how proposed job cuts threaten the heart of Irish grassroots football. Adrian shares insider insights on the union's fightback against what they call a 'rogue management team,' highlighting impacts on staff morale, youth development, and community programs. Join us for a discussion on workers' rights in sports and why solidarity could reshape the future of football in Ireland.

Follows us on those socials

boysweveseen on Instagram
@boysweveseen on Twitter

Or email us at

boysweveseen@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:32

Hi everyone, my name is Connor Hefman, and welcome to another edition of The Boys Who Scene. This is a special interview in edition because I'm joined not by Jonathan Cooper, but by Adrian Kane, who is head of the services division of SIP2. Now, for keen-eyed Irish soccer fans that have seen SIP2 and the FAI come up more and more in newspaper articles, and what we're interested in today is the ongoing dispute and issues between the FAI and its workers, but also some of the issues within the sporting industry writ large. So, Adrian, thanks so much for coming onto the podcast. Thanks, uh Connor. It's nice to be here. Hey, don't have to say that. We'll see how the interview goes. But the for people who are unfamiliar, because I know I said off-air, the current climate is being reported on, but I don't think it's been given probably the attention that it deserves. So what is this current state of play between the FAI and its workers?

SPEAKER_01: 1:25

Yeah, well, we we ended up in the WRC the the week before last. And that that's the Workplace Relations Commission. That's a body that tries to resolve disputes between workers uh and their employers. And a document did emerge from that, needed some subsequent changes, etc. But essentially our members have accepted it. We've accepted it basically because I don't think we had many other places to go. But it it's far from satisfactory, and I don't think it leaves football going forward or the FAI going forward in a great space. But we have had a very tempestuous relationship with the FI with the FAI over a long number of years. They have refused to concede collective bargain rights to SIP2. And if you look at this this current process that that they're in and what they call this transformation process, essentially stepping back from the detail, what it's about is transforming football and removing it from any kind of community-based project to a completely, as I would say, kind of more capitalist-based project. And I say specifically what I'm and why I say that is they're they're doing away with the kind of people that we represent. Essentially, the development officers, the people who train coaches, who are coaches themselves, anchored in the communities with schemes that were supported by the ETP local authorities, they're being closed down. And uh essentially it'll w what they're hoping will happen then is that FAI clubs in the League of Ireland will develop kind of academy programmes, etc. And they're the ones who are going to provide the training. So kind of that wider remit in terms of developing football in Ireland, they're walking away from, and essentially it's down to League of Ireland clubs, and they're saying they're they're following kind of UEFA type models. But I mean, as you can see, League of Ireland isn't comparable to the strength or the money in in other leagues in uh across Europe. So that that's where where we're at. We brought back a proposal, it was an enhanced redundancy package from what the FAI were were putting on the table, but it was purely uh it was almost entirely focused at the people who develop or and deliver football at local level. They were looking for 60 redundancies, 53 were targeted at football, only seven redundancies they were looking for in what I would call management grades.

SPEAKER_00: 4:13

And I think this is something it's a very pertinent time to talk about because Chris Andrews came out today saying that you know this should be referred on to the Minister of Sport, Patrick O'Donovan, and makes that exact point that you're making, Adrian, that the people who are being laid off, the development officers in parts of Dublin, but then also parts of Ireland, he Senator Andrews specifically referenced you know schemes in CABRA, for example, and saying, well, you know, aside from producing top male and female players, there's a social good and a community good to having these positions in place. And you have 200,000 being overspent on the FAI's PR expenses, you have a lack of transparency, and as you said, there are clear after effects that this will have for communities but also for the sport.

SPEAKER_01: 4:59

Yeah, I I mean I I just somebody had sent me on the the the piece there by by Chris and use uh Andrew's and he makes the point very well. But but I I also think you know that you you're you're talking about a minister who is he's obsessed with market-based solutions and probably one of the most right-wing members that we've had over the last 30 years, I believe. Um because he he's in similar kind of spaces with RTE, who we we represent significant numbers in in RTE as as well. But I I would say this, and I'm kind of moving away from the point somewhat as well. One of the biggest problems that we have with the FAI is it's not exactly a body that's held very high in the public's mindset. But regrettably, when you start denigrating an organization like that, it's usually the the people at the bottom who suffer most. Okay? And that's the space that we we found ourselves in. Sometimes as a trade union, it's very difficult to get publicity on issues. It wasn't difficult to get publicity on this, but it that because it's a kind of national pastime of kicking the FAI around. But the the unfortunate part about that, uh and as we can see, what has happened with RT, is that it's not usually that it's transformed into some great democratic body and owned by the public in a much more dynamic way or anything like that. It's usually, as I say, all the people that we represent, the ordinary Joes or not so ordinary Joes, are the people who who suffer most. That's what's happening in RTE as well, where essentially it's been reduced to just a publishing sort of platform and everything else then is outsourced and very little required, I would argue, is given to the public good. And that's what's happened here with the FAI, that it's been reduced purely to within a more orthodox capital relationship in terms of promoting a game. These are clubs, the FAI clubs can make money, they're gonna have to provide that. We're out of community, which I'm not so sure is good for the development of the game long run, when it's a very competitive market in in terms of GEA and rugby, and I mean we're an incredibly sporting nation. So I think they I think there will be a serious problem going forward, and that's why it doesn't I mean we were resigned to this is the best that we could do, but it it it's not something that we're we're happy with at all, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 7:41

And do you think this is one of the biggest misconceptions? Because when I when I talk to people about this or I look online for my sins and comment sections, there will be the sense of, oh well, this is and I'm not asking you to comment previous uh in instance in the FAI, but you know, oh, this is champagne football, this is clearing out the dead wood, this is there's this kind of misplaced idea that this is clearing out executives. But as you say, these 60 redundancies, these are the development officers, these are people on the ground, these are coaches, these are people who aren't in positions of power necessarily within the FAI, but there seems to be a general sense of how this is potentially you know clearing out dead wood within the organization.

SPEAKER_01: 8:24

Yeah, I I I it nothing could be further from the truth in terms of it. And like good football people around the the the country probably know that, okay? But it no better men, and it's primarily men uh at spinning a yarn than the the the people over the FAI. And I think it it they have a great ability to perpetuate a management class that can swan around the place, what would be my my my sense sense of them. And as I say, I don't I don't think that's just unique to Ireland. I mean we can see you know with the pricing of tickets for the forthcoming World Cup or FIFA presenting the orange man in in the White House with it with a peace price. I mean, it's just it's beyond parody at this stage. And I I I think basketball is in crisis and has been for a long number of years. It it kind of encapsulates all the worst elements of contemporary capital and society uh in terms of say a working class game which people supported was an integral part of their their identity of going to the match on a Saturday, paying over a nominal fund, but owning the club, whereas now all that power is funnelled up to the top. And it also kind of is a throwback to a kind of more feudalist times as well, where now you have these sugar daddies, you know, who can parade, oh well, I've got a football club to my name as well. So I I I think from the game that I grew up with, it it has transformed usually, and it's hard hard to say what what has been positive in in that transformation, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 10:11

Tie to that because I think the power dynamics within football as sport have shifted so dramatically in the last 20 years. What does that mean within an organizational sense? Because I know from research in this episode, there's been issues where top figures in the FAI have not attended meetings with the workers, where plans have not been shared with the workers, where it is very much, or it seems as an outsider like me, a kind of like like it or lump it kind of approach, which belies to me this kind of power imbalance between those who hold the levers of power and those who are at the coal face of it within the sport, be it fans, be it coaches, be it workers, there does seem to be a kind of lack of transparency in how power is distributed.

SPEAKER_01: 10:59

Yeah, well, I I'd make kind of two points. At times you do kind of think you're sitting down with kind of Rosso Carol Kelly, you know, and and I don't say that likely, you know, and you deal with all sorts of management and you know, some people are decent, they're only doing a job or whatever, but like you you do, as I say, I I I I remember being at one meeting and with another official from the union, and the two was almost kind of uh articulated that view at the simultaneously, you know. But that there is the there is a very it's a very serious point that that you make. But unfortunately in this country we have very weak legislation around collective bargaining rights. So as I say, the FAI have never formally recognized SIP2. They they will meet with us and we're kind of left in a limbo land in terms of on the one hand they're refusing to negotiate with you, but they're in the room, they're talking to you. Okay, so it it it's it it's a somewhat uh strange sort of liminal space that you you you find yourself in. And then what they did was during this negotiation, they they essentially appointed an employee relations group. And they did that to try and ensure that they they met with obligations under what's called the Protection of Employment Act. I don't believe that they did. It's uh we've written to them to that effect, that issue has uh will not now be tested uh in law, as it were, but it was very much a case of just creating this group and to to give cover in in that regard. So, yes, you do have a transfer of power to to the you know to management and to capital within society, and all that flows with that in terms of increase inequality. If you look at trade union density when it was at its highest in this country in the mid-1980s, it would have been around 62%. It's now at 23%. Trade union density is the the amount of workers who are in the labor force who are members of the trade union. And if you look at the the the by measuring equality over that same period, you you see a direct relationship with a decline uh in trade union density and an increase in inequality. And if workers can't combine together to get at that capital and to look for a more distribution of capital, that's what happens when people are left to bargaining in an employment. An employment relationship is an inherently unequal relationship, and the only way that you attempt to make it a little less unequal is by coming together and forming a trade union. So, yes, we we're you know what what happened to the FAI is something that happens to us unfortunately on an all too regular basis, where if we don't have enough people in the union and an employer takes us on, and unless people are prepared to to take the ultimate step, which has happened, we had a very successful outcome to a dispute in Tulamore in Carl's cuisine, almost totally migrant workforce. The the employer there was refusing to give us collective bargaining rights. Lads went on strike and we've won that, you know. And ultimately that's what you need to do, unfortunately, in today's age still, to try and uh get collective bargaining rights.

SPEAKER_00: 14:33

And it's something that I'm interested in because I'm working in the university sector, we've had strikes, we've had numerous issues with our pension plans, workloads, etc. I won't turn this into a moaning session for me. But I'm wondering universities kind of sit in it's a it's a tricky position. And I'll I'll put parallels with sport, but also healthcare, where the kinds of people who go into these positions are usually the kinds of people who have some call to service. You know, and it it and it's not to say that other industries don't, but you will often get a pushback of, well, sure, why would I go on strike? The insert population will suffer, you know, why would I go on strike? The students will suffer, why would I go on strike, the patients will suffer, why would I go on strike, the kids will suffer, the athletes will suffer. I'm wondering, is sport unique or is there are there things within sport which make it difficult to get that collective bargainer, that collective action? Because sport is a business, like it's a multi-billion dollar business, and you reference the World Cup tickets, and that shows the extent to which it's a divorce sport that relies on people's emotions and passion. But it does also have that emotive component. And I often feel within sport writ large in Ireland, there's an over-reliance on well, we can push this group, these workers, these volunteers, because they love what they do. So I'm I'm wondering does sport hide behind emotion and passion and service when it is ultimately a business? And there is at times mismanagement within that business?

SPEAKER_01: 16:00

Yeah. I think that it it's a very interesting question. Uh and when you're asking it, I I'm there, and all sorts of things are flashing across my my brain in terms of trying to answer it and and kind of you you've obviously given it some thought, and I like the way that you've you've kind of looked at that in terms of say an emotional engagement in a in a vocational space, what happens there? And I think certainly I I've seen that I I would have spent some years in the community sector, and that happened there as well. Like trying to organize community-based workers when they're doing their best for ordinary jobs is very, very difficult. And an employer can exploit that space and that level of vocation that people and that level of attachment that people have to a role that they play. Um and I think uh I I'm sure it happens to sport. We don't have a huge like it's it's an area the union is growing in as sport becomes more more professional. But um and like you you are in this liminal space with regard to sport of something that was outside of market relations and now market relations are applied to it, in the same way as what has happened in the in the university. My wife is is a lecturer in the university, but you you you then almost have the the the worst of both worlds in terms of uh a space that isn't uh lends itself to market uh relationships, and then you try to create these in a bureaucratic fashion and apply them, and then you end up in this kind of Stalinist capitalist space and that that drives people nuts, you know. I mean I know you know with all the sort of paperwork and nonsense and non-work, you know. I forget the name of that saw it there recently, but the insidification of things, you know. Yes, um and I'm not sure if that's that's okay.

SPEAKER_00: 18:01

I there's a wonderful book called Bullshit Jobs, which kind of ties into the insidification of that.

SPEAKER_01: 18:07

So yeah, I I I I do agree with you. There's something goes on in that more vocational space that can lead people have been exploited, and they're they're a little less conscious or class conscious, you know, and it's a bit more difficult to build that kind of collective identity as workers in in that type of space. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 18:28

And I I know you'd actually written an article recently, which is along the lines like where have all the radicals gone, or or or something to that effect. In terms of those strong labour voices, it seems seems to be a broader societal topic, I think.

SPEAKER_01: 18:42

Yeah, I I I it was uh at the I think that that speech was from the Connolly we we have a memorial every year to James Connolly in in May. And the point I was making at that, you know, where where you you're at that oration, you're standing at the graveside of revolutionaries. But you you would argue that the most successful revolutionaries in more recent times, you would say, uh was Thatcher, and then you would look at you know what what the current regime in America is about and all that it has spawned. Whereas Thatcher's was essentially the rollback of the state. To a lot of extent, or to a large extent, I think that the current the current plan, in so much as a plan exists, is essentially the evisceration of the state, and that you get back to a Hobbesian type relationship that the state is there to provide security and very little else. And that's really the the the the the the space that that the Trump fans uh space is about. So if you don't if you're not radical in some way, I think um there's a space on the political spectrum. For radicals. And so it's up for grams, and it strikes me that the far right are saying we'll we'll have some of that.

SPEAKER_00: 20:09

And it it's funny because connect to that, and we'll come back to football. But if you look at the kind of rising pop popularisation of far right figures, oftentimes it can stem from a disenchantment with working conditions and pay and cost of living and inflation. And there's a very famous uh instance a couple of months ago where AOC, the kind of left-leaning American Democrat, found out that people voted for her and also voted for Donald Trump. And the connecting point was not their social politics, but their economic ability to pinpoint workers' rights, cost of living, inflation, the ability to earn a fair wage.

SPEAKER_01: 20:49

Yeah, and I I I mean I've seen that and like you know, talking to people, and then you said, who did you vote for? Um yeah, so I I I think people are there to be won as well. You know, I I think painting people all uh in turn with the one brushes in a good way in terms of trying to engage with people. You have to meet people where they are at. And you know, I I think the trade union movement needs to be more political. I think it needs to be to the fore of building a more common left platform, and that needs to mean something. Like I I and I think we that that the the the result in the presidential election was a good starting block. But that needs to be built on in a in a serious way, and probably people at the top of parties sitting down, I mean as well, working out specific programmes of what they could do. Because I think that the the the the government were were re-elected really because there wasn't seem to be a viable opposition, and it'll be sad to see that that happening again, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 21:53

And to tie this into football, and I I promise this link will make sense. Back to football, yeah. Back to football. No, but the this link makes sense because I feel there's often a lethargy around workers' rights, and then what will happen is workers' rights will be stripped away, or there'll be redundancies or a change in working conditions, and in six months' time or a year down the line, someone will say, Well, why why don't we have this initiative anymore? What happened to John or Jane or Mary, or why aren't we doing this anymore? And it's interesting with the FAI's plans where you have someone like Stephen Kenny come out, who obviously managed the Irish national team's now League of Ireland manager, and he's talked about the problems that the current restructuring of Irish football may bring, even to League of Ireland clubs. We're saying like this puts a lot more pressure on League of Ireland clubs. This also removes a talent pool from a coaching perspective, but also from a child perspective or an athlete perspective, and it also, I think more importantly, narrows the FAI's or just football's reach within communities, you know, and it comes at a time when I don't think the GA has ever had more community development officers than at this point in time, and I know the RFU is working towards that as well. So he's almost talking about the inshrinkification of the FAI's influence over our society, but then also the fact that this puts pressure on League of Ireland Clubs, which have their own acrimonious relationship with the FAI. So there seems to be this problem where there could be a sleepwalking into these situations.

SPEAKER_01: 23:22

I I I have no doubt that that the decisions taken with regard to this program will be very detrimental to the long-term development of football in this state. And it is a case you you don't miss the water till the the well runs dry. But this is like we are unique in this country in terms of having th three major field games, four you know, four major field games, three different codes in terms of GA, Horlin, and football. But and you're right in terms of the the the money going into GA. And I I I was gonna digress. I'm originally from a Thai myself, and I was in Croke Park on on Saturday, and we we were up against St. Enders or Bo I can't think of the name Bowdenstown, or not Bowden's I can't think of the name of the the the club. But somebody told me later, I I was travelling home with them, of how many members they had the the the the Dublin based club at thousands of members paying 250 euro, you know, and there's maybe 200 members in a thigh, and they had four intra-county players. They look like rugby players in comparison to our fellas who gave a good account of themselves. But but these imbalances that are taking place in the GEA that is struggling and has struggled over how do you keep an amateur ethos in in a world that is is saturated by market relationships. And uh I mean I think they turn a blind eye to a lot of it for fear of trying to to regulate it more and what the outcomes and how negative they they may be. But I do think you're right, Connor, in terms of or even that I I hadn't heard those comments by Stephen Kenning, but I think they're well made.

SPEAKER_00: 25:20

Yeah, and something that I'm interested with this is and to use a kind of more political term, you know, like the chilling effects of these restructuring, because there's often a case where, you know, and it's not to divulge too much about the higher education sector, you know, where new deals are made, you know, and and thing there might be a stay of execution for certain jobs and certain roles and restructuring, etc. etc. But what we don't often talk about is the effect that that has on the workers. And there's been some interesting pieces where coach there is, I think, three coaches with the cumulative effect, about a hundred years of experience between them, yeah, have left the FAI. And I know from talking to people informally, and I won't name names or positions, but there are people who are saying, listen, I'm looking for a way out now. And you know, and I'm gonna move organization, even if my current job is safe. I don't feel comfortable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:12

Well, they they they did yeah, I I I'm 30 years doing this job for my sins, and I've rarely seen a more cynical approach to the way in which they handle these negotiations. They didn't share what the the the the reform program was with the union. They never have. They didn't say how many redundancies they required. And uh so they tried to create, you know, created false deadlines to put pressure on people to sign up, etc. So it it was kind of shock tactics in in terms of trying to get rid of as many people as possible. Okay, that that's what it was about from um from the beginning. And the kind of you know, personal stories. I remember one day we were on we we had a an online meeting with people, and one one of the fellas who was at at the under 17 World Cup was just giving a letter to say that his job was now his job was now at risk. This is in the middle when when when Ireland were were doing very well and did very well in that that competition. And you're also looking, coming back to the point that you were talking about earlier in terms of how uh emotionally engaged people are with these jobs. It rem it reminds me of there's an old story in the the the Transport Union about uh the the the Cooper's deal in in Guinness was uh was the highest redundancy deal that was ever done. You know, on the basis you were arguing that it was the end, it was the end of your profession, you know. You weren't just losing your job, but there was nowhere to do this work. That's what's happened here with regard to you know people who are passionate about the game of football, they're out, they're gone. They they've nowhere to to go. And you know, uh people were very reluctant to take redundancy, but you know, could feel that, as you say, that chilling effect and are gone and but probably won't be able to be part of the game that they that they love and have given a lifetime to. And I as you say, you know, people who have been working for the FAI for and have given a lifetime to to the game.

SPEAKER_00: 28:29

And connected to this, because you know, in reading the snippets that exist online, I w I was very upset because I'm someone who teaches people who work in sport management, sport development. I've colleagues who work with major federations with the lack of transparency. But one thing that particularly upset me was staff being told that they could reapply for their positions. Right, jeez. Yeah. So I'm wondering if you can explain this mechanism for for listeners and why, from my perspective, again, you know better than me, it's a particularly odious thing to do, in my view, for workers.

SPEAKER_01: 29:03

Yeah, yeah, no, and it it is I I'd have to say it's one of the most despicable elements that you've seen creeping in over the last 20 years. There used to be a time um that and again, without bogging or boring people with various legislation, etc. But the you know that there there would be the concept, or you're obliged to have a fair selection process. So that used to be in the good old days of kind of say mass industrialization or whatever, it'll be last in, first out. That that's how it would work, right? Then it would move to and say, well, you have to have a kind of skill-based because there are different kinds of roles, it can't be just service on your length of service, etc., which is fair enough. But now this is transformed to more aggressive employers, essentially getting to a situation whereby you're picking and choosing who goes by virtue of the fact that it's an interview to say, and you add on a little bit to whatever the job you're doing saying, and having people jumping up and down and breaking down that sense of collective and saying this is how the hoops you have to jump through to retain your job. Right. So it's it's particularly odious at a time when people are under huge pressure and and are very nervous and and scared about their future, etc., to have them going through this charade with which they all these things are ultimately, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 30:30

Yeah, and I think these are things that again, I think there is maybe a public misconception when they say the FAI has a transformation plan and people suddenly think that this is efficient and streamlined and is clearing out the excesses of the boardroom. And I know I mentioned it, but Chris Andrews pointing out that 200,000 euro was overspent on the organization's PR bill. And if you think that an organization can wantonly spend that, well, at the same time, that's three or four or five salaries. You know, put tumitively, and and these are some of the things that I think show that lack of transparency between the exec the executive room and what's happening on the ground.

SPEAKER_01: 31:14

Well, I I think i and i i it is utterly shameful, but but again, it's endemic of our times. And what happens then as well, when you start putting huge amounts of money into marketing, etc. That's taken away from some somewhere else. And you're denigrating the people who actually do the real work. I think uh Naomi Klein made this uh point, I think it was it was it in shock doctrine, you know, about you say with regard to uh uh the clothing industry. You start putting millions that into promoting brands and what they are, whatever, and and then you look at the effect and saying the people who are actually making the the products they're they they're on a paint, you know. So that that that's transformational with regard to uh say the the cost of production and the people who prove uh who really produce wealth are getting less and less, and then the the kind of you know, the the gloss uh uh and the marketing and everything else that goes with with kind of contemporary capitalist society, all that money is is fizzing around there, that really is of no merit or or value ultimately.

SPEAKER_00: 32:30

And it's one of my colleagues, Paul Donnelly, is working with the GA or with a colleague in Loughborough on the intangible impact of the GA. So they say, listen, obviously, you know, the GA generates X amount of millions, you know, for the Irish economy every year, but what is the intangible, like what does it mean to have a club in the back our security where the club hall is also used for the birthday parties for the local children? Or, you know, and they they have this example of one of the club's budgets had something for funeral costs, you know, and this is kind of the unseen b benefit and value. It's brilliant research, it's also brilliant for the GA because then they can go to the powers that be and say, listen, we have this impact. But you know, when you think about it, like what does a football association do? And the origins of the football association in Ireland is based in workers' rights, and what is a bet what is the best advertisement for football is having someone in your local community who's affiliated with the FAI, who's doing good work with the children or the clubs within that community versus an online social media push or something that you know the kind of executive class has decided is what is what's useful. So, in looking, I suppose, to the next couple of months or the next couple of years, what is your sense of the current relationship? Obviously, a matter has been settled to a certain extent. Where do you think things go from here, both for say the FAI from your perspective, or SIP2, or the workers themselves?

SPEAKER_01: 33:58

Has there been has this encouraged greater collective bargaining within the the working force or well I I would say that um like what what we agreed at the WRC is that both sides agreed to revisit collective bargaining rights in the new year. The government has published an action plan to promote collective bargaining as a result of uh an EU directive on minimum wage and collective bargaining. But exploit that in terms of putting pressure on organisations to concede collective bargaining. So we'll have to come back to that in the new year. Obviously, we we have lost members in the kind of key groups of those development officers, etc. So we're in a in a bit of a rebuilding mode. But I do think that like and I like you have to pick yourself up and move on again, but I do think that they've cut the heart out of this organization. And you can feel that from talking to lads, and I think we we we'll be in a difficult space, and particularly because, as I say, I think you have a a really right wing kind of class warrior in the current ministry. Building kind of community and getting a space to argue for a more communitarian approach to contemporary society is very difficult, I think, in a much more orthodox um right right wing government, you know, w without any kind of tampering influences of uh uh of the Green Party, who are much denigrated. But you can see where where they have been, you know, uh Finafol and Finegale with the support of of uh by and large quite a reactionary group of of independents. The space in which they have travelled uh since they've taken office, I think is quite significant from pressure that they would have been under from all all sorts of people prior to to this administration. I think that that's uh it's a difficult space for for more progressive elements to engage with this government at all.

SPEAKER_00: 36:10

I I think that's the the harrowing thing. Obviously, this is a podcast about football, this is a dispute and story about football, but it it can't actually be removed from the current context of our society, workers' rights and labour rights, because ultimately this is and this this is where I think sport oftentimes gets to shield itself. We're not we're not a business, we're 40,000 in Lansdowne, we're your local kids' club, you know, where the the joy you feel when a goal is scored. But it is a business, and it's still it's still a business.

SPEAKER_01: 36:46

Yeah, for for sure. I mean, I know everything is politics at the end of the day, you know. I mean nothing exists other than within a political context, you know. But yeah, as I say, we we have to pick ourselves up, we have to dust ourselves down, but yeah, I I I think that the the current trajectory is wrong and it's lost that community-based focus, and it's more down to a more pressure on League of Ireland clubs to for you know development academies and and that type of approach. And again, which is is all to do with kind of exploiting young fellas as opposed to developing a a passion and encouraging people to play and partake. I know from and like a lot of Irish people have an extended family in in England, but I remember talking to my cousin and he had told me that he his young fella had had a trial, but he lives in Coventry, you know, and had a trial with Aston Villa. And I said, Jesus, that's that's brilliant. That that must be great, you know. And he said, No, Adrian, he said that doesn't mean doesn't mean anything. He said half the kids in the estate, you know, have have been through this thing and then they're dumped out and then they're heartbroken, you know. Um so that that's not the way to to develop kids, I I I I think myself, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 38:07

I oftentimes when we interview former players on this podcast, one of my first questions is what supports existed for you when you went to to England, you know, to the continent, you know, from Northern Ireland to Republic or vice versa. Because I often make the point with students if McDonald's was taking young fellas at 14, removing them from their families, bringing them to another country, sit putting them into a setup where their their key point of reference is someone who decides whether or not they're going to be fired or kept on. We wouldn't call it a passion, you wouldn't call it you know a vocation. It begins with T and ends in rafficking. But as we close up, I suppose one question that I have is what's a key takeaway that you think the general public or audience needs to remember about SIP2's fight for fair treatment in football? Because I think the FAI is protected by misconceptions around who is being affected by this transformation plan.

SPEAKER_01: 39:06

Okay, the two things that I would say, first of all, we need effective legislation around collective bargaining, that people aren't terrified to join the union and saying that they're going to be taken on. In this day and age, we need to have and say that if people come together and want to be represented by a union, that an employer has to sit down and talk to us. That means that we have to have the right to like I've spent a lot of time working in the waste industry, you'd be run down by by trucks standing outside depots, etc. The amount of of uh things that go on in the background in terms of uh you know, union bus and etc. So that's one thing. The second thing is just of fighting everywhere you can, of stopping uh the uh of capitalist relations uh polluting everything. Okay and maybe that's a little bit too high flying in terms of you know when I'm saying that. But people know it when when something they used to be for free and they were in it together and all of a sudden somebody's getting paid at the top and it's no longer feels like they own something that it looks more like a business. The more you know if people don't have that kind of communitarian sort of base which I think Ireland is really good at. Like we have strong communities. It's not just something that we tell ourselves. When you go elsewhere you can see you know and I'd say southern Southern Europe is good like that as well. But you can, you know, when you go to northern university people don't talk to each other. They seem to live incredibly insular lives in comparison to going into an Irish pub and having the crack and you know we we will lose that the more communitarian based organisations we lose and the more that we allow them to become just straightforward kind of capitalist relations. So they're the two things that I would say it's not over we pick ourselves up and the fight continues as it does every day in in this show.

SPEAKER_00: 41:04

No and I think you know he obviously wasn't saying it in the context of workers' rights but that idea of a rising tide lifts all ships. I I do believe that within a workers context that if there is something that happens you know over offstage left it does embolden and encourage and support people on the centre stage or right of centre, you know whatever the case may be. So I think it it's a story about football but it's actually a story about workers' rights and the eroding of workers' rights within the island of Ireland.

SPEAKER_01: 41:34

Yeah for for sure Connor and you know I I do like I would have said earlier than say we had a very significant win at a at a a meat plant in in Tullimore of nearly a total migrant workforce they stood up for themselves and they won because they were prepared to go out and strike for collective bargain rights and we got a significant increase in rare pay as well. And where people come together we we have we have a good track record. It's as simple as that but people have lost that sense of trade unionism where I I remember when I started work out I I don't remember joining the union you were just in the union you know you didn't you didn't twice about it you just signed the contract and you were in you were in the union and you didn't bat an island you know we're in a different space now and the trade union movement needs to change as well to ensure that we we can get younger people in and that we're seen to be contemporary not an antiquated type organization who are out there representing younger workers etc so Adrian on that note thank you so much for your time I really appreciate it and okay Connor hopefully there's better clouds on the horizon all right okay thanks Connor talk to you soon take care